A huge court ruling just smacked atheists with news they never expected to hear

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While Christians simply want to be left alone, atheists will do anything in their power to get in their way.

Many atheists don’t believe children should be allowed to pray at school.

But a court just issued a huge ruling that smacked atheists with news they never expected to hear.

A group of atheists recently got angry and sued the Pennsylvania House Speaker, who denied them the ability to offer a prayer during a legislative session.

They wanted to make a mockery of prayer, but the Republican Speaker wasn’t having it.

The atheist group cited the Establishment Clause, which prohibits government from establishing an official religion.

But a U.S. Court of Appeals disagrees, with a Clinton-appointed Judge writing the majority opinion, stating that “prayer presumes a higher power,” and that without that higher power it can’t be considered prayer.

Breitbart News reports:

A federal court ruled Friday against a coalition of atheists who brought a lawsuit against the Pennsylvania House Speaker, claiming the body violated the Establishment Clause of the Constitution by prohibiting them from offering the prayer.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit ruled 2-1 in Speaker v. Fields that it is not unconstitutional to bar atheists, who do not acknowledge God, from offering the prayer in the legislature.

Judge Thomas Ambro, a Clinton nominee, wrote the majority opinion:

“As to the Establishment Clause, we uphold the policy because only theistic prayer can satisfy the historical purpose of appealing for divine guidance in lawmaking, the basis for the Supreme Court taking as a given that prayer presumes a higher power. For the Free Exercise, Free Speech, and Equal Protection Clauses, we hold that legislative prayer is government speech not open to attack via those channels.

The nontheists also challenge as unconstitutionally coercive the requests to “please rise” for the prayer. We hold that the single incident involving pressure from a security guard is moot. As for the sign outside the House chamber and the Speaker’s introductory request that guests “please rise,” we hold that these are not coercive.”

What in the world would atheists even use as a prayer in front of a legislative body?

Would they just read quotes from their heroes Christopher Hitchens and Bill Maher?

They don’t believe in a God to pray to.

Do you think atheists should be allowed to lead a prayer before a legislative body?

Let us know your thoughts in the comment section below.

101 COMMENTS

  1. Whether we’re a democracy or a republic is subject to debate, but I agree with the founding fathers on the Constitution and separation of church and state. The First Amendment reads: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion (meaning the government can’t favor one religion over another) nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

    “…respecting an establishment of religion,” in a broader sense of the word, really does mean freedom of belief. Thomas Jefferson was laissez-faire (“hands-off!”) towards all belief and disbelief, not caring whether his neighbor believes in twenty gods or no god. Religious leaders warned that if Jefferson were elected, Bibles would be confiscated, churches would be closed down, etc. Clearly, that didn’t happen. Secularists are NOT atheists.

    Most violations of church-state separation, however, are not coming from Muslims, but from Christians pushing their religion on others where it doesn’t belong: Christian prayers in the public schools; Christian prayers before city council meetings; theistic expressions like “In God We Trust” on coins and currency; theistic expressions like “one nation under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance, etc.

    We’re NOT talking about radical Islam and beheadings, but about Muslim Americans and persons merely mistakenly perceived to be Muslim (e.g., Sikhs, Hindus, Bahai’s and Buddhists) facing discrimination here in the United States.

    The Department of Justice noted that it has investigated over a thousand hate crimes and other acts of discrimination against faith groups since September 11th, 2001. This disturbing trend correlates to a steady rise in crimes committed against Muslims and those perceived to be Muslim. The real 2014 total of anti-Muslim hate crimes could be as many as six thousand or more.

    In February 2016, a still-unidentified suspect broke into a Minneapolis mosque and vandalized it. Earlier, a Spokane, Wash., man broke into a local Sikh gurdwara and caused $35,000 worth of damage; he told police he believed he had discovered a mosque affiliated with ISIS. And a Buddhist monk was attacked in Oregon after a man mistook him for a Muslim.

    The Lincoln County Commission in North Carolina Chair Carrol Mitchem told local news outlets in 2015 that he has no intention of allowing any non-Christians to offer invocations before commission meetings because Christians constitute a majority in the United States. “I don’t need no Arab or Muslim or whoever telling me what to do or us here in the county what to do about praying,” Mitchem said. “If they don’t like it, stay the hell away.”

    That is what religious discrimination actually looks like.

    It’s a far cry from asking bakers to obey public accommodation laws.

    Joseph Callahan similarly commented on the Huffington Post in 2015:

    “It is pretty hard now days to turn on the television or open a newspaper without hearing about ‘the war on Christianity’ and see devout believers lamenting on how horribly they are ‘persecuted’ in America today. With gay marriage, abortion and atheists removing God from every aspect of the government, it seems pretty obvious that we secular citizens are using separation of church and state as a new battlefield against religion. How horrible a life American Christians must be forced to live.

    “In Iran, Christians are being executed for their faith. In Myanmar, you can be thrown in prison just for owning a Bible. In North Korea, well, you face death just for believing any god exists. The 2015 report from the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) shows that thirteen million people have fled seven countries (Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, Central African Republic (CAR), Eritrea, Burma, and Afghanistan). Many of those displaced are Christians, and mostly due to fear of violence and/or death.

    “The Bible, and distributing it, is restricted in over fifty countries worldwide, and spreading the gospel will land you in jail or executed in many of those. But none of this compares to the wholly American horror of (possibly) being forced to bake a cake for a gay wedding! How could we compare the American ‘war on Christianity’ to the Christians (and other religious beliefs) persecuted worldwide? I mean, our own little bubble, and our own discomforts in the first world are all that really matter. The rest of the world isn’t us, so we shouldn’t compare ourselves to them, right?

    “In America today, you can proudly say, ‘I’m a Christian’ and carry a Bible with you everywhere you go. You can go to any church you want to without being arrested. You can say anything you want! You can even proclaim that you worship the Giant Spaghetti Monster, and all the persecution you will receive is strange looks from some people.’

    “Yet, in this, one of the most religiously tolerant nations, Christians are screaming persecution just because our laws are changing to embrace everyone’s belief structure. By not allowing one faith to force their beliefs down our legal throats, the country has launched a ‘war’ on (one specific) faith.”

    Anyone perceived to be Muslim, like Sikhs, Hindus, Bahai’s and Buddhists, often face the same discrimination. Religious minorities in this country are merely asking for the same level of consideration and equal treatment given to Christians.

    It was reported in the Indo-American press in either the ’90s or 2000s that a coalition of Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains were going to court to demand a completely religion-neutral society, which does not favor one religion over another, nor one set of beliefs or disbeliefs over another.

    I’m Hindu, not Muslim. The fact that American liberals refer derisively to the Christian right in this country as “the American Taliban” indicates disdain for the Islamic Taliban. Again, secularists are NOT atheists.

    • We are a Republic! It is not open for debate. If you’d bother to learn about America, rather than spread and parrot talking points from MSNBC clowns, you’d know you’re wrong. Part of the Pledge of Allegiance : “.. and to the Republic, for which it stands…” NO DEBATE!

    • Vasu, the part you miss, no one is forced to pray, and all prayer Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc is acceptable, faux prayer for those who do not believe in a God, however, is not prayer it is mockery and they do not have a right to impose their atheist beliefs on others, being asked to rise is not indoctrination, it is not the govt promoting or establishing a religion it is a request to be respectful of those who do believe. Is civility too much for the atheists to consider or are their views the only ones that matter?

      Really Vasu is there even just one single thing conservatives believe that you will not argue against? or are you simply a contrary person who must decent no matter what the topic?
      Oh, btw I began to read this, got three paragraphs in then said- Wait is this Vasu…Oh, ok – scroll past the copy/past no independent thoughts here.

    • Vasu, You have absolutely NO CLUE what you are even posting. You have no clue who God is, what Christianity is, or who our founding fathers were. You have no brain to reason with. Try actually just posting something without cutting and pasting. YOU CAN’T!!!! You have no thoughts of your own. You have nothing at all to offer. You just blindly believe the lies of your sick lib leaders without question like a good little robot. You are a very sad excuse for a human being.

    • This country was founded on the Christian religion. Let’s keep it that way. If they don’t like it they don’t have to listen to it. There is only one true God and we don’t need to contaminate every thing with false Gods.

    • We are what is known as a constitutional republic if you had bothered to learn our history. In a constitutional republic, all of it’s people have a voice, not just the majority. On another note, “separation of church and state” is not found in our constitution. It’s from Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists… “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, “thus building a wall of separation between Church & State”. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.”
      It was never about taking religion out of the government, but keeping the government out of forming religion. Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and evidence of that can be found in our laws and the Biblical verses found in our monuments throughout Washington, Dc.

    • Vasu, Vasilja, You are typical of a Demonic Demoncrat, you love the sound of your own voice but facts mean nothing to you. You are so accustom to lying that you no longer recognizes the truth, nor are you interested in the truth.

    • Murti is correct. But the real reason that neither government, nor anyone else, should try to resort to some god is that it is provable that there can exist no reason to believe that any god exists — and, more importantly, there can exist no reason to care: it is a logical impossibility for there to exist any information about any god.

      • There is neither scientific nor logical reason to believe that God does not exist. Everything from the structure of matter with its innate ability to produce chemical reactions, to the structure of the human chromosome with its ability to describe the uniqueness of each person, suggests an all-knowing, all-powerful Designer.

        • Charles Marshall claims that there is no scientific reason to suppose that a god does not exist. Which is correct, but misses the point: there can exist no reason, either scientific or logical, to suppose that any god DOES exist.
          Exercise: Make any claim about any god. Then try to find a way by which such claim could be shown to be false. You will not succeed, and the fact that you won’t means that no information can derive from such claim. (This is provable.) To re-state the conclusion: you cannot know ANYTHING about any god — including whether it even exists.

        • Just the fact that all of us have a God ordained DNA. which tells our story of who we are..our DNA shows a cross in it..we all have it.. So called atheists fight a losing war over a Person they do not acknowledge ..
          GOD who created all of us..they know not whereof they speak..

      • Father God and the King of Kings are real. If you choose not to believe, so be it. But don’t impose your non beliefs on believers.
        Atheists speak of science and say scientists have no evidence of God. Yes they do. More scientists are beginning to believe. Physicists say the universe is mathematically correct. Everything has its perfect place. That’s not from an explosion which chaos comes from. It is Someone’s design. And it is in my opinion just because some scientists know more doesn’t mean they know ALL. If they did they wouldn’t have so many facilities labeled RESEARCH.
        If you look at the film ‘the Case Against Christ’ re an atheist who tried to disprove Christ and the Resurrection and with much research he COULD NOT. He found that there are more historical documents from witnesses of the time than there are of anything else. If you were to compile those historical biblical documents they would reach a mile into the sky. Yet the powers that be endeavor to keep the aforementioned hidden from the rest of us.
        Besides, what makes scientists think that they can outsmart the Creator of the universe. What makes them think they are going to find anything the Creator is not ready for them to find, then again, maybe they have and their arrogance keeps them from sharing that knowledge with the rest of us. I recall hearing a story about Noah’s Ark being found by a professor who wanted to prove it wasn’t real. When he found the Ark he endeavored to burn but it would not burn. He kept his find hidden. On his death bed he admitted to finding the Ark. How do we know that the gov isn’t hiding religious artifacts from us.
        Raiders of the Lost Ark was supposedly fictional but it was also based on fact. We know that the nazis searched out religious relics wanting to utilize the power that the Biblical relics supposedly yielded according to the Bible.
        I don’t push my faith on anyone yet I don’t attack those who don’t believe. Everyone has the right to make their own choices. And I refuse to allow any fallible, unallknowing person who has a short end to themselves in a universe that is immeasurably years old to change my faith. Let’s stop attacking each other a agree to disagree. That’s the intelligent thing to do. When we disagreed with others and name call, you put yourself on their crass base level. Rise above it. Seems to me that the purpose of some folk is to make another person angry. They get a thrill from it. That’s why they continue. Don’t give them the satisfaction.
        And I believe that there’s nothing and no one greater than Jesus.

    • Get a grip on history. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was never intended to limit Christianity. It was intended to prevent any single denomination of Christianity from being the religion of the United States, as was the case in England. “Religion” in historical context was a synonym for denomination.

    • Check history, Vasu. Muslims only want the same religious freedoms as other religions…ONLY while they are the minority. When they become the majority, you had better get used to living in a Muslim nation.

  2. Pro-life Catholic Cassy Fiano claims she opposes abortion on secular grounds, but writes on Live Action: “I despise hearing abortion advocates screech about the elusive separation of church and state (which doesn’t actually exist), using it as an argument for why abortion should be legal.”

    Church-state separation is not a myth (see below). A secular society is laissez-faire toward all belief AND disbelief, which protects religious minorities, atheists, agnostics, etc. This country (the United States) wasn’t founded by Christians.

    (If you expect those outside of your faith to be bound by secular arguments on to protect the unborn, will you likewise be bound by secular arguments to protect animals? Or will you cry “MOVE”! as if we were discussing some lifeless, soulless thing, devoid of religious inspiration? And when pro-lifers are shown the long history of animal advocacy within Christianity, will they say, “Animal rights are a Christian cause! Like civil rights and/or protection of unborn children. This is a cause we Christians must support!” ?)

    A Roman Catholic priest, Reverend David K. O’Rourke, said, “Every religious group in the United States is a minority group. Some may be unhappy with this status and wish they had official standing. I am not unhappy with it. The Catholic Church, the largest of these minorities, has prospered greatly in this country where we separate church and state.”

    According to journalist Rob Boston of Americans United for Separation of Church and State: “We have a vibrant, multifaith religious society that, with the exception of a few fundamentalist Muslim states, is admired all over the globe.

    “We have a degree of interfaith harmony unmatched in the world. Our government is legally secular, but our culture accommodates and welcomes a variety of religious voices. New faiths take root here without fear…

    “Americans remain greatly interested in religion and things spiritual—unlike their counterparts in Western Europe, where religion is often state subsidized but of little interest to most people….

    “Children are no longer forced to pray in school or read from religious texts against their will, yet they are free to engage in truly voluntary religious worship whenever they feel the need. The important task of imparting religious and philosophical training to youngsters is left where it always belonged—with each child’s parents or guardians…

    “Some European nations have passed so-called anticult laws aimed at curbing the rights of unpopular new religions. Such laws would not be acceptable in the United States or permitted under the First Amendment.

    “In a multifaith society such as the United States,” observes Boston, “a type of religious marketplace does exist. Religious groups that aggressively seek converts, such as the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, are well aware that people in the United States are able and even willing to change their religious beliefs. To these groups, it’s well worth it to enter the marketplace and advertise their goods. Lots of people might buy them…

    “Because the U.S. government is secular, religious groups are left to contend for members based solely on their own initiative. They create a free marketplace of religion that spurs competition and a vigorous religious life. This explains why the United States, which maintains church-state separation, retains a high degree of religiosity among its people.

    “The more sophisticated and perceptive believers realize that the separation principle is a boon to their faith,” notes Boston. “They see danger in any attempt by government to decide which religion is true and which is false.

    “They know that a faith that is in favor with the government today can be out of favor tomorrow. These believers are thankful for the free marketplace of religion and the secular state that makes it possible. They understand that the way to get new members is through persuasion, not government aid.”

    In 1787 when the framers excluded all mention of God from the Constitution, they were widely denounced as immoral and the document was denounced as godless, which is precisely what it is. Opponents of the Constitution challenged ratifying conventions in nearly every state, calling attention to Article VI, Section 3:

    “No religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

    An anti-federalist in North Carolina wrote: “The exclusion of religious tests is by many thought dangerous and impolitic. Pagans, Deists and Mohammedans might obtain office among us.”

    Amos Singletary of Massachussetts, one of the most outspoken critics of the Constitution, said that he “hoped to see Christians (in power), yet by the Constitution, a papist or an infidel was as eligible as they.”

    Luther Martin, a Maryland delegate to the Constitutional Convention of 1787 wrote that “there were some members so unfashionable as to think that a belief in the existence of a Deity, and of a state of future rewards and punishments would be some security for the good conduct of our rulers, and that in a Christian country, it would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism.”

    Martin’s report shows that a “Christian nation” faction had its say during the convention, and that its views were consciously rejected.

    The United States Constitution is a completely secular political document. It begins “We the people,” and contains no mention of “God,” “Jesus,” or “Christianity.” Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as the “no religious test” clause (Article VI), and “Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” (First Amendment)

    The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase “so help me God” or any requirement to swear on a Bible (Article II, Section 1).

    The words “under God” did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them.

    Similarly, “In God we Trust” was absent from paper currency before 1956, though it did appear on some coins beginning in 1864.

    The original U.S. motto, written by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is “E Pluribus Unum” (“Of Many, One”) celebrating plurality and diversity.

    In 1797, America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that “the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington’s presidency and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

    We are not governed by the Declaration of Independence. Its purpose was to “dissolve the political bonds,” not to set up a religious nation. Its authority was based upon the idea that “governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,” which is contrary to the biblical concept of rule by divine authority.

    The Declaration deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, etc., and doesn’t discuss religion at all. The references to “Nature’s God,” “Creator,” and “Divine Providence” in the Declaration do not endorse Christianity. Its author, Thomas Jefferson, was a Deist, opposed to Christianity and the supernatural.

    “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus,” wrote Thomas Jefferson. However, Jefferson admitted, “In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man and that other parts are the fabric of very inferior minds…”

    It was Thomas Jefferson who established the separation of church and state. Jefferson was deeply suspicious of religion and of clergy wielding political power.

    Jefferson helped create the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom in 1786, incurring the wrath of Christians by his fervent defense of toleration of atheists:

    “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are only injurious to others. But it does no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

    Jefferson advocated a “wall of separation” between church and state not to protect the church from government intrusion, but to preserve the freedom of the people:

    “I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest morality that has ever been taught;” he observed, “but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invested by priestcraft and established by kingcraft, constituting a conspiracy of church and state against the civil and religious liberties of mankind.”

    Jefferson and the founding fathers were products of the Age of Enlightenment. Their world view was based upon Deism, secularism, and rationalism.

    “The priests of the different religious sects dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight,” wrote Jefferson. “The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter…we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this…”

    As late as 1820, Jefferson was convinced everyone in the United States would die a Unitarian. Jefferson, Madison and Paine’s writings indicate that America was never intended to be a Christian theocracy. “I have sworn upon the altar of God,” wrote Jefferson, “eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

    In his 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists, Jefferson wrote:

    “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

    Similarly, in an 1824 letter to John Cartwright, Jefferson expressed anger at judges who had based rulings on their belief that Christianity is part of the common law. Cartwright had written a book critical of these judges, and Jefferson was glad to see it. Observed Jefferson:

    “The proof of the contrary, which you have produced, is controvertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever existed.”

    Jefferson challenged “the best-read lawyer to produce another script of authority for this judicial forgery” and concluded, “What a conspiracy this, between Church and State!”

    As president, Jefferson put his “wall of separation” theory into practice. He refused to issue proclamations calling for days of prayer and fasting, insisting that they violate the First Amendment. As early as 1779, Jefferson proposed a bill before the Virginia legislature that would have established a series of elementary schools to teach the basics—reading, writing, and arithmetic.

    Jefferson even suggested that “no religious reading, instruction, or exercise shall be prescribed or practiced, inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination.” Jefferson did not regard public schools as the proper agent to form children’s religious views.

    As president, James Madison also put his separationist philosophy into action. He vetoed two bills he believed would violate church-state separation. The first was an act incorporating the Episcopal Church in the District of Columbia that gave the church the authority to care for the poor. The second was a proposed land grant to a Baptist church in Mississippi.

    Had Madison, the father of the Constitution, believed that all the First Amendment was intended to do was bar setting up a state church, he would have approved these bills. Instead, he vetoed both, and in his veto messages to Congress explicitly stated that he was rejecting the bills because they violated the First Amendment.

    Later in his life, James Madison came out against state-paid chaplains, writing, “The establishment of the chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles.” He also concluded that his calling for days of prayer and fasting during his presidency had been unconstitutional.

    In an 1819 letter to Robert Walsh, Madison wrote, “the number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state.” In an undated essay called the “Detached Memoranda,” written in the early 1800s, Madison wrote, “Strongly guarded… is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States.”

    In 1833 Madison responded to a letter sent to him by Jasper Adams. Adams had written a pamphlet titled “The Relations of Christianity to Civil Government in the United States,” which tried to prove that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Madison wrote back: “In the papal system, government and religion are in a manner consolidated, and that is found to be the worst of government.”

    Madison, like Jefferson, was confident that separation of church and state would protect both the institutions of government and religion. Late in his life, Madison wrote to a Lutheran minister about this, declaring, “A due distinction… between what is due to Caesar and what is due to God, best promotes the discharge of both obligations… A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity.”

    In the early part of the 19th century, a general understanding existed that the government should not promote religion, or favor one religion over another. In 1829, Senator Richard Johnson of Kentucky wrote:

    “It is not the legitimate province of the Legislature to determine what religion is true, or what is false. Our Government is a civil and not a religious institution. Our Constitution recognizes in every person the right to choose his own religion, and to enjoy it freely, without molestation. Whatever may be the religious sentiments of citizens, and however variant, they are alike entitled to protection from the Government, so long as they do not invade the rights of others…

    “Among all the religious persecutions with which almost every page of modern history is stained, no victim ever suffered but for violation of what Government denominated the law of God. To prevent a similar train of evils in this country, the Constitution has wisely withheld from our Government the power of defining the divine law.”

    • Vasu, Our Constitution and all other documents of that time were written by CHRISTIANS. You have no clue what a Christian is. A Christian follows Jesus and His teachings in all things.

      • Even if they were not all Christains they all had a fear of the lord and believed in the teaching of christianity. This guy Vasu thinks because he prattles a lot people will think he knows what he’s talking about. Islam is the religion of the devil. For anyone that says that Allah and the Christian God are one and the same are lying and they know they are lying. Everyone knows they are not same because Allah tells you who he is and God tells us who he is. Just because our government tells everyone that they can worship who they want to or they don’t have to worship at all goes along with what God says and that is he will never take our free will.

        • Danny, you are correct. Islam is satanic. Muhammad invented islam to get back at Christians and Jews for not associating with him. He was very evil and his goal was to rule the world. He put himself above all other prophets (which he was not, but called himself the greatest) and said that Jesus was just a prophet. He denied that Jesus was the Son of God, because he would not have Jesus be more important than he was. The whole Quran is of satan.

      • We were not until 1954, and it was a misguided decision even then. And the pledge is not a formal legal document defining our governance.

        • sally, our founding fathers themselves declared we were one nation under God. Try reading REAL history and know that MOST of our founders were Christians and ALL believed in God and ALL of their documents reflect that belief.

        • sally, I’m sure that you have no clue why our founding fathers even came here. They came here so that they could worship God as they chose, not as England said they had to. They gave us the same freedom to worship God when, where, and how we choose. You can deny God, but that in no way means He is not there. Sorry that you have closed your mind to the truth.

          • I am certainly aware that the reason for the first British settlers was the desire to worship as they chose, but some early colonies denied that very right to others. Roger Williams is known for allowing more diversity in what became Rhode Island than others. Apparently, some colonists just preferred their theocracy to the one they left behind. Fortunately, when it came time to design a national government, the founders realized that keeping government out of religion was the best way for all to be able to worship or not according to their own conscience, without the need to financially support a religion that did not square with their conscience. That separation has served us well, and continues to do so.

          • sally…Our founding fathers’ Christian beliefs showed up in EVERY document they wrote. A Christian cannot and does not separate any part of their life from God. They follow God in all things. They attended church services in the Capitol Building, required Bibles in schools, and installed chaplains in the military.

      • Paul Aldredge: Thank you for your post. You are correct. The Demon party , in every avenue , is trying to rewrite history. Their false teachings are EVERYWHERE! From all grades in schools, to churches and in our own government… WE THE PEOPLE must stop this madness soon!

    • It is a SHAME on this site that there is no “Block User” option.
      Vasu certainly burns up a lot of space to serve no usable information or data.

      I have no issue with his positions, but endless CUT&PASTE submissions have no value.

      The following is what a ” CUT&PASTE should look like”;

      *** Establishment Clause

      The First Amendment’s Establishment Clause prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion, but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another. It also prohibits the government from unduly preferring religion over non-religion, or non-religion over religion.

      Although some government action implicating religion is permissible, and indeed unavoidable, it is not clear just how much the Establishment Clause tolerates. In the past, the Supreme Court has permitted religious invocations to open legislative session, public funds to be used for private religious school bussing and textbooks, and university funds to be used to print and public student religious groups’ publications. Conversely, the Court has ruled against some overtly religious displays at courthouses, state funding supplementing teacher salaries at religious schools, and some overly religious holiday decorations on public land.***

      To follow the Founding Documents further, I offer the following for the Declaration of Independence:

      *** We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ***

      Since Atheists have no Creator, they DO NO DERIVE any Inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. *** in their own name.

    • Do you really think anyone is going to take the time to read a “book” in a discussion forum? Shorten things down to a concise point; not a long drawn-out rant.

    • Really, Vast, do you just have long files on your computer of every possible subject so you can just quickly copy and paste a quick descent from any point being raised? I think you must because a lot of this (as I quickly scroll past) looks very much like past posts. At least find some new material- or is the DNC so busy trying to find one decent candidate out of 25 that they don’t have time to post any new talking points for a while? That must be frustrating.

  3. Vasu, you know NOTHING at all about our founding fathers nor our history. That is very obvious. And, NO, Thomas Jefferson DID NOT establish separation of church and state. That is a LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The ONLY place he ever even mentioned it was in a PRIVATE letter. Nothing you said is true. YOU ARE A FOOL!!!!!! Go and read REAL history. You have been brainwashed by the libs who rewrote history to suit their sick agenda. You have no concept of reality. sad

  4. Vasu, YES, this nation was founded as a CHRISTIAN nation. That is a FACT. You can deny the truth, but that just makes you a fool. Do you even have any idea WHY our founding fathers came here???? It was so they could worship God as they chose, not as England said they had to. Your brain is sadly missing.

      • Well, he sure did not say it was a Muslim nation.
        It was in fact founded by men of the enlightenment age, men who Where Christians and incorporated Christian ideals into our founding documents. NOT Quranic ones, not Hindu Vedas, and not atheistic dogma.

        No, there was no official religion as this country was founded by Christians to be a safe haven for all who choose to worship as they see fit. As for Adams saying America is in no way a Christian nation- his opinion but I suspect there is more to that comment and its context.

      • Sally, better try reading REAL history!!!! That treaty was meant to pacify the Barbary pirates only. And check it out…It was REWRITTEN and left that part out!!!!! Make NO MISTAKE. This nation was founded by men who believed in God as the Supreme Being and acted accordingly.

  5. Vasu, you are WRONG!!!! Our founding fathers believed in God without exception, even Jefferson. You have no clue. Here are just a few of the quotes you missed…
    Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson in August 1776: “Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God.”
    John Adams …
    “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
    “The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity.”
    The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. John Quincy Adams
    Noah Webster…The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles, which enjoins humility, piety, and benevolence; which acknowledges in every person a brother, or a sister, and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free Constitutions of Government.
    “We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come.” Samuel Adams, as the Declaration of Independence was being signed, 1776.
    patrick henry…
    In a letter to his daughter dated August 20, 1796, he wrote:
    “Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast.”

    There, see, I can copy and paste, too.

    • bj; We, that are not brainwashed Leftists, and not paid by the Republican party to print our comments, know the truth. That’s all the matters . I know it totally frustrates you this pest shows up at EVERY site and every story. But there is nothing that can be done to stop him. You know the Leftists are trying so hard to rewrite history. This is all part of their plan.
      I asked him a question and this fool still has not responded. Why? Because he doesn’t have a cut and paste answer, that’s why.
      You are a champion for GOD and Jesus and , even though he hasn’t responded , I know that bothers him.
      May I make a suggestion to you bj ? When ever you see him posting, just type I ignore lies and stupidity and leave it at that. Just a suggestion…

      • Linda, Thanks and I know I shouldn’t let him bother me. But what really does bother me is wyu7 (sorry, kitten on keyboard) what you said…they are trying to rewrite history. Those who go to public schools are not taught the truth…just lib propaganda. That is very sad.

    • Very well done BJ I approve of your Copy/Paste skills, in fact, find them superior to Vasu’s- sorry Vasu but he chose specific ones to address the topic, you just go into a long file do a huge info dump and hope something in their will address whatever topic is at hand…I did not check- did you fit your vegan thing it today too?

    • If a Christian nation had been the intent of the founders, they would have put that in the Constitution, front and center. Yet the text of the Constitution contains no references to God, Jesus Christ, or Christianity. That document does not state that our country is an officially Christian nation. Not only does the Constitution not give recognition or acknowledgment to Christianity, but it also includes Article VI, which bans “religious tests” for public office. Guaranteeing non-Christians the right to hold federal office seems antipodal to an officially Christian nation. The language found in Article VI sparked some controversy, and a minority faction that favored limiting public office to Christians (or at least to believers) protested. Luther Martin, a Maryland delegate, later reported that some felt it “would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism.” But, as Martin noted, the article’s language was approved “by a great majority . . . without much debate.” The Christian nation argument just wasn’t persuasive.

      In addition, the First Amendment bars all laws “respecting an establishment of religion” and protects “the free exercise thereof.” Nothing here indicates that the latter provision applies only to Christian faiths. Finding no support for their ideas in the body of the Constitution, Christian-nation advocates are left to point to other documents, including the Declaration of Independence. This also fails. The Declaration’s reference to “the Creator” is plainly Deistic. More obscure documents such as the Northwest Ordinance or personal writings by various framers are interesting historically but do not rise to the level of governance documents. When it comes to determining the manner of the U.S. government, only the Constitution matters. The Constitution does not declare that the United States is a Christian nation. This fact alone is fatal to the cause of Christian nation advocates.

      Journalist Rob Boston of Americans United for Separation of Church and State points out that when religious right leaders quote Patrick Henry, they are quoting the losing side of history.

  6. “In the Beginning, GOD Created the Heaven and the Earth.” Genesis 1:1 Next atheist you meet, tell him or her, they better Jump in the Air and Hold their Breath, because they are Trespassing on GOD’s Land and Stealing HIS Air.

  7. AlanWH, I can’t resist adding another Beginning comment: “From the beginning God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife.” Jesus Christ

    Happy Labor Day!

  8. I have thought for years there are sufficient grounds to charge these groups with attempting to deprive people of their constitutional rights, specifically the first amendment. Free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association.

  9. IN GOD WE TRUST does not say which God WE TRUST IN. IT could be a Jewish God. Muslim God or any God that people believe in. So the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT IS NOT BACKING A CERTAIN GOD.

    • That is also a recently adopted motto; in the era of the founders, it was E Pluribus Unun, or Out of Many, One, which I find infinitely more appropriate.

      • Who cares what you like Sally G? Snowflakes like you are EXACTLY why this country has such hatred for each other. You have absolutely NO benefit in commenting. None. You mean nothing!!! This country was at its best as Christian nation with morals and decency. Then assholes just like YOU think it important to combat that fact. Shut the hell up. Go away and be silent for evermore you mindless liberal minion. You stand for nothing that matters. Nothing that’s good. Just divisive idiotic drivel. Find a hobby and do it silently fool. That goes for Vasu too. You serve no purpose by commenting so don’t comment. Your mama should have taught you that.

        • Wayne: This is the Demon party’s master plan. Lie, deceive and cause mass confusion. Pit one against another. Remove GOD from our government and our country. Remove all our morals and promote hate. Never in my wildest dreams would I have ever imagined, that in our own government, we would have such traitors , like the squad, and nothing is being done about !! WE THE PEOPLE and what we want no longer exist. I trust Trump and will vote for him again. But, I truly feel the evilness is winning and our great country will no longer be…..

      • Yes, the left today absolutely wants to believe out of many – one–no diversity of thought- all toe the PC line, no individuality- all must conform, the only differences allowed are of physical traits like skin color which no one has any control over, but can be used as a tool to control and manipulate. The Out of Many – One that they were talking about was One United Nation and yes Under God because it is in the first line of the Constitution. We are endowed by our creator- not by a governing body, not by one group, party or religion over another, our political system is a united Republic that is the One they were talking about given our freedoms by the Creator (whatever title you chose to give that creator) it had nothing to do with denying God in any form. Heck, even the Satanists in Ca. are allowed to do a satanic prayer before govt council meetings- so it is only the atheists who have no deity to pray to who are being denied the chance to mock everyone else. The real question is, Why do they feel the need to impose their religion-of-nonreligion on the rest of us? No one is stopping them from -not-praying. No one is forcing a god of any kind on them. If they cannot see a religious symbol or hear a public prayer without being indoctrinated into a religion then their own non-belief is not that strong and I would question how good an atheist they are because someone sure of their beliefs can endure any sights or sounds opposing them and come out with their beliefs intact. Just a thought.

        • “Yes, Under God because it is in the first line of the Constitution. We are endowed by our creator.”

          Sorry, Izib, but that’s the first line of the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. Unfortunately, many atheists just love pointing out (and it’s true) that God is not mentioned anywhere in the Consitution–not even in the Bill of Rights which those who insisted on their addition understood to be inalienable because they were ours from God, not a government instituted among men.

    • John. He will. ALL who reject Jesus and His great love and gift will join satan in Hell. It is for each one of us to choose to spend eternity with Jesus or satan. Jesus is there for all who will come to Him and repent. But He will never force Himself on anyone.

  10. We let atheists be unbelievers so they should allow us to be believers.. why are nonChristians constantly pushing their ideas on us and forcing us to do their will? EVERYONE will meet their Maker one day and I choose to believe in Jesus Christ and His Father ….. IT’S MY RIGHT

    • Diane, it’s not that atheists do not believe. It’s that they refuse to have Someone rule over them and tell them what is right and wrong. They can deny God, but that in no way means He is not there. It just means that they have rejected Him, which He gives them the choice to make. We all have the choice to follow Jesus to Heaven or satan to Hell. They have chosen satan, whom they follow.

        • sally, YES, you do. ALL who come to Jesus and accept His awesome gift of forgiveness will spend eternity with Him in Heaven. ALL others will join their master satan in Hell. YOU have rejected Jesus and have been brainwashed by satan. satna hates God as much as you do and will cause as much chaos and confusion as he can. He will take as many of us that God has created to Hell as he can. You can reject the truth, but that does not in any way change it.

  11. What is the best definition of an atheist:
    Believes in nothing
    Stands for nothing
    Good for nothing

    Put one in a foxhole, or any situation where death is a possibility, and watch them get down on their knees and pray to the God they don’t believe in.

  12. President John Adams also served as Chairman of “The American Bible Society” which by the way was formed by the Continental Congress, which then voted to Purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation. Now, consider this, Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well-worn Bible: ” I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrines of Jesus also.

  13. Atheists do believe in God, but they hate Him, if they didn’t believe why would hey get so upset if we were worshiping a nothing?

      • Please do not attempt to define how I, for one, think. I actually do not know if there is any sort of god/supreme being/creator/etc.; logically, I do not see evidence for one, but proving a negative is impossible. I have not seen sufficient proof of a positive to convince me. Technically, perhaps I am as much agnostic as anything, but when faced with unyielding statements from believers, I tend to respond equally strongly. I will certainly discuss all sorts of possibilities with believers who are willing to consider alternatives to their own beliefs.

      • sally, logic comes from God. There is evidence for Him everywhere if you open your heart and mind and see it. All who come to Jesus and accept Him as their Savior know that He is there for them. I truly hope that you will come to know His great love for you. He is there for you if you ever want Him. He is waiting for you, but He will never force Himself on you. You get to choose to follow Him or not.

        • Thanks; I am not sure what you mean by “logic comes from God”, whatever the source, applying it does not lead me personally to belief. Still, you are one whom I respect is having a sincere discussion, all too rare on the Internet. Best wishes.

          • sally, thanks, and what I meant is that all things come from God who created all things. I don’t know if you have read the Bible, but the history and science in it are sound. I know that the Bible is the true word of God and I use it to guide my life. Jesus was a real person. There is historical evidence for His existence here on this earth. There is no historical evidence for His being the Son of God. That is something you have to find out for yourself if you want. The New Testament tells all about Him and His great sacrifice for us. And best wishes to you, too.

      • Firstly, it is provable that NO information can come from any god. Which, of course, includes logic. An assertion that “God created all things” cannot be supported by evidence of any sort. Secondly, the bible is FICTION; this has been known for two centuries, and a recent compendium of biblical errors has over SEVEN THOUSAND entries. (See McKinzie, Biblical Errancy – a reference guide.)
        A religion may make you feel good, but it cannot offer reliable guidance on any issue whatever.

        The usual excuse for believing in a god is the “God of the gaps” argument, also called the “Argument from ignorance.” It goes like this:
        – “I don’t know how this could possibly have happened, so no one else does either, or can…” Which is obviously silly.
        – “And, therefore, a god must have done it.” This logical fallacy is called “begging the question”, meaning that you are assuming that which you are trying to prove.

        Exercise: Demonstrate that any god exists. This can be done by exhibition of any phenomenon, repeatedly observable by anyone who is interested, which necessarily entails the existence of a god. You must show that no natural phenomenon could be responsible — whether such phenomenon is now known or not.

  14. Just a note for thought — bloggers like Vasu, Redman, Betty (crazy) and a few more that are cursing and cut and pasting and bashing the comments on these sites are paid every time someone enters their name in a response. So if you must respond to these rude trolls do not use the name that they sign in under or they get $$$$$. Just saying this is how they make a living from the basement of the parents home. Now I typed a few of the names and they will get paid. I will not do it again.

  15. Surely an atheist can pray to God as well as any pretender. Only an actual fool believes that there really is an actual God that created man and oversees his well being. In fact, its kind of cool to pretend that there really is a God in heaven, so long as you don’t cross the line into being an actual abject fool.

  16. I don’t get it. The atheists want to ban all forms of prayer from government but now they want to sue the government because it won’t let them say their prayer in government proceedings? This is the very definition of HYPOCRACY!

    • Atheists are not all of the exact same mind; those who wanted to open a meeting with their beliefs would feel more included if they were represented along with the various religions. Others would agree with you that participating in this way validates the inclusion of a prayer and would not want to do so. I have grown to accept that it is likely impossible to remove all religious references from government, and focus on policy and spending.

  17. Please, stop calling them atheists! I am an atheist and all the others I know don’t believe in god but don’t care whether others do or not . Do I want to do away with religion ? NO! I see the need for it ( keeping large numbers of population in check). These radical idiots just want to stir up trouble and are AGAINST a god (that we don’t believe exists) and Jesus………. I guess that makes them anti-Christs ?

    • “keeping large numbers of population in check”? Sorry, that sounds like one of the flaws of religion! Obviously, we are proof of the fact that atheists have a variety of beliefs and philosophies.

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